With all due respect, Sealord, I disagree. There is 0.04% CO2 in inhaled air and 4% CO2 in exhaled air. There is 21% O2 in inhaled air and 16% O2 in exhaled air. Nitrogen doesn't change to any significant degree. Altitude doesn't affect the ratio of gases, but the air pressure. Do you have any evidence to show that the masks filter CO2 or O2 selectively?
Here's my take on the presumed increase in number of incidents on airplanes:
The media is completely irresponsible and reports, not necessarily facts, for ratings. Have the number of incidents truly gone up or are they just reported more lately?
The airlines continue to decrease seat space and comfort in cattle class for the almighty dollar. People have a personal space. When it's encroached upon, they get irritated and belligerent.
As British implied, I think it may be, at least partially alcohol related, but not as you might think. A number of the airlines have banned alcohol service. This may lead to people bringing their own (a violation for which at least one individual was fined heavily) or using some other form of chemical alteration. Or people may down a few at the airport before the flight, not enough to get them refused boarding, but enough to alter their judgement. Masks do seem to be a factor as well.
My other theory is that people are just cranky and intolerant after the pandemic and other recent events.
Gee, we better not let surgeons and operating room personnel wear those evil, killer, masks!
Seriously, the partial pressure of O2 at your mouth or nostrils changes insignificantly, the CO2 passes through the mask since there is little to no space between mask and face for any volume to collect. Once through the mask the CO2 expands spherically (think r3 and further mixes with surrounding air which has a much higher concentration of O2 than your body requires! The partial pressure of CO2 in exhaled air is not much higher than the air you breath (remember, you only use some of the O2 you breathe. You always exhale N, CO2, and O2). The partial pressure of CO2 in your lungs is what triggers the breathing reflex, not the lack of O2. If the mask, in fact resulted in your breathing a significantly higher concentration of CO2, your body would first respond by causing you to hyperventilate.
I don’t remember the school, but I do remember seeing the video of a track competitor wearing a mask that passed out crossing the finish line. It is obvious to me that the mask reduces the O2 uptake. I will not work out wearing a mask. When we landed in places like La Paz Bolivia we landed and took off wearing O2 masks. We were not even allowed to do a check list without wearing an O2 mask. We preflighted the airplane using a ‘walk-around’ O2 bottle. The flight attendants would often come to the cockpit to breathe some oxygen from our masks. We always had O2 available but the FAs only had it for emergency purposes. Many airlines are not serving alcohol except in business/first.
You are confusing the low partial pressure, reduced amount of molecules of O2 (and all gases) at altitude caused by the lower pressure, with the percentages of gases in a given volume of air. Two entirely different physics principles. When wearing an N95 mask, all air molecules can pass in both directions so is totally different and has almost no effect on the percentage of gases in air.
Carbon dioxide exists in the Earth's atmosphere at a concentration of approximately 0.04 percent (400 parts per million) by volume. You could put a plastic bag over your head and re-breathe the same air for several minutes before passing out. That is certainly not what is happening with a porous face mask.
Here is the real deal:
Inhaled air is about 20-percent oxygen. Exhaled air is about 16-percent oxygen. Therefore, only about 4-percent of breathed air is consumed in each breath. That air is converted to carbon dioxide. Free divers continue to function on the amount of O2O in their lungs from the final breath they take before submerging.
I don’t doubt that your percentages are correct. The simple fact is that if you have unrestricted airflow, you are getting more air than when you breathe through a mask. That being said, according to your figures you have one hundred times the amount of carbon dioxide in the exhaled air in your mask, and four percent less oxygen under a far lower ‘partial pressure’ at eight thousand feet pressure altitude. That is the reason that many advise not to drink alcohol on an airplane. The effects are enhanced by the high altitude of the cabin … without a mask. One hundred times the CO2 and 4% less O2 can only aggravate the issue. I may have a poorly oxygenated brain, but I have studied aviation physiology at the post graduate level.
You guys can argue the science and the numbers all you want. I'll look at practical matters like passengers and crew wearing masks for both short and long haul flights for a year now. Haven't heard of anyone passing out. I just spent 24 hours in a hospital wearing a mask for all but meals. I have no worries about wearing one for a long travel day though of course would love to do without.
Incidents on planes? We have too many people with anger management and entitlement issues ( not to mention mental health) who seem to think they should never be inconvenienced. Get over youselves.
I'm not a pulmonologist, but I don't make this stuff up, not that smart. Besides, I read it on the internet, so it MUST be true. Seriously, would I lie? (stretch the truth? maybe )
The simple fact is, once you exhale through a porous (N95 or other cloth mask)- the exhaled air- all gases that make up that air- immediately mix with the surrounding air having 79%, 21%, and .04% so that your next inhalation will be of a standard, balanced mix of gases!
Outdoor CO2 levels tend to average around 400 ppm, the highest it has been in thousands of years. In extreme cases the levels indoors under severe conditions (5 people crammed into a hermetically sealed phone booth? ) can increase far beyond that, upwards of 1000 ppm (that is 2.5 times ambient!) or even 2000 ppm (5 times ambient). At 1000 ppm-2500 ppm you may experience fatigue, loss of focus and concentration, uncomfortable ‘stuffy’ feeling in the air. At 2500 ppm-5000 ppm you may experience headache, drowsiness, tiredness. 5000 ppm-40,000 ppm violates OSHA requirements. You may experience severe headaches, slight intoxication depending on the exposure time.
But, under normal conditions, a mask and normal exhalation are not going to raise the levels of CO2 from 400 ppm up to anywhere near even 1000 ppm, especially in a normally ventilated room (or aircraft cabin where the “air is completely changed every three minutes, on average, while the aircraft is cruising.”)
Thank you, Claudia, for your post. There for a while I thought I was back in elementary school watching the pre-pubescent boys flexing their non-existent muscles. And what is the point to copy and paste from the internet, especially without referencing sources? Self aggrandizement excuses plagiarism?
I do hope you have recovered from your surgery. My husband also had to wear a mask while he was hospitalized six times over a five month period in 2020. Not a single complaint from him other than not being able to have me visit.
I also agree that too many despicable behaviors on airplanes are due to those that think their "rights" are being violated.
Nonetheless, enjoy your upcoming trip and please be sure to post a review.
kfnknfzk, be careful!!! You'll get yourself in trouble like before.
A bit of hypocrisy? Your earlier post, ". . . . I am also sometimes dismayed at the change in this forum. I can ignore pessimism, but it is the lack of civility that concerns me the most. . . . . " contradicts this most recent one where you imply fellow forum members are "pre-pubescent boys flexing their non-existent muscles. . . . . Self aggrandizement excuses plagiarism?" which is certainly far from civil!! Your post has been reported.
Look, masks have saved millions of lives this passed year, Reading and contributing to the forum continues to keep us thinking about travel and travel related topics that sometimes go off topic. Reading the forum is after all a voluntary activity. I don’t have a Facebook account, so the forum is my go to activity when I sit down to rest from my chores.and for my middle of the night insomnia.
I have another theory for the increased craziness of disruptive passengers apart from those who think that wearing a mask is loss of freedom.....maybe it is the extra anxiety of making the decision to fly in the first place, especially when the CDC etc are advising people not to travel. I will certainly be extra anxious when I first fly, wondering how things are in the country I am flying to, have I got the correct paperwork, will I get a negative test so I can fly back to the US, will there be someone on the tour who keeps moaning about their mask wearing, hope all the places on the itinerary are open and on and on. My husband, who obviously loves to travel, has no desire to get on a plane right now, he’s anxious about being on a plane when a mask related incident occurs.
In the future, our descendants will probably find it unbelievable that we packed ourselves like sardines on a plane and didn’t wear masks. At least when we westerners see people wearing mask in the future, we are not going to find it weird.
When we went to Costco yesterday, we were really surprised at the now voluntary number of people wearing masks, it was a very hot day too
My earlier comment wasn't so much attacking the male head butting, but just to take a more practical view for those who don't get or aren't interested in the science. I know some people are convinced they can't breath in a mask. Everyone is different. I know I had some times - especially in last summer's heat - when I'd be breathing hard and have the instinctive desire to pull the mask off. If I just stopped, calmed down and focused on breathing I was fine. Our bodies are funny reactive things that sometimes sense a threat when one doesn't necessarily exist.
I do worry about incidents on planes but mostly from the potential for causing delays if the plane reroutes and you end up missing a connection.
I’m trying to talk my hubby into a particular Europe tour right now in October and he just won’t budge on going to Europe until 2022. The plane diversions and delays are what concern him too.
Tizzy. I am not familiar with such pedigreed vernacular.
Regarding deleting posts, it is a function of data management that I periodically perform on all my files. If there was a particular post you wish for me to resurrect, I would be more than happy to oblige.
Some here think the atmosphere in a hospital room is the same as an airplane. It is not. When you are in an airplane your atmosphere is roughly eight thousand feet of pressure altitude. If wearing a mask just reduces your ‘air’ intake by twenty percent, you are effectively above ten thousand feet where you should be on supplemental oxygen. How hypoxic people act is not very predictable, but I’ve been on enough high altitude pressure chamber rides to be able to say that you may observe some bizarre behavior. Perhaps some have also forgotten the Apollo 13 story when they had to invent and build a device to ‘scrub’ the CO2 in order to survive. Read the small print on the airline website about masks. There are people who ‘cannot’ wear masks on airplanes.
Sealord, you missed the point. A porous fiber mask will not limit the volume of "air" your lungs can inhale at any given altitude. A mask may add a minute amount of breathing resistance, but in no way limits the volume of air your lungs will hold.
As for partial pressure- high cabin altitude will certainly reduce the partial pressure of gases in the air you breathe, but wearing a porous mask has no affect on that. Purely a guess, but most likely those who "can't" wear a mask are those with COPD or diaphragm problems, or have claustrophobia.
The bottom line, a porous, N95 or cloth, mask will not reduce the amount of air or O2 you inhale, reduce the amount of CO2 you exhale, nor increase the amount of ambient CO2 you inhale.
I’m confused about flags, I don’t see a number on Alan’s flag.
I have Whatsapp but not Facebook to communicate with English friends. A group of four was started including me for our midwives group. Before then, one of them would send me a morning joke, video or inspirational saying. Now she puts them on the group one, another friend makes a comment on each of those, I feel my phone is pinging every five minutes and there’s nothing but a lol or 👍 it’s driving me nuts
Comments
Masks are porous, they don’t fit tight enough. And what percentage of people wear them properly anyway 😂😂😂 here was me thinking it was the alcohol!
With all due respect, Sealord, I disagree. There is 0.04% CO2 in inhaled air and 4% CO2 in exhaled air. There is 21% O2 in inhaled air and 16% O2 in exhaled air. Nitrogen doesn't change to any significant degree. Altitude doesn't affect the ratio of gases, but the air pressure. Do you have any evidence to show that the masks filter CO2 or O2 selectively?
Here's my take on the presumed increase in number of incidents on airplanes:
As British implied, I think it may be, at least partially alcohol related, but not as you might think. A number of the airlines have banned alcohol service. This may lead to people bringing their own (a violation for which at least one individual was fined heavily) or using some other form of chemical alteration. Or people may down a few at the airport before the flight, not enough to get them refused boarding, but enough to alter their judgement. Masks do seem to be a factor as well.
My other theory is that people are just cranky and intolerant after the pandemic and other recent events.
Gee, we better not let surgeons and operating room personnel wear those evil, killer, masks!
Seriously, the partial pressure of O2 at your mouth or nostrils changes insignificantly, the CO2 passes through the mask since there is little to no space between mask and face for any volume to collect. Once through the mask the CO2 expands spherically (think r3 and further mixes with surrounding air which has a much higher concentration of O2 than your body requires! The partial pressure of CO2 in exhaled air is not much higher than the air you breath (remember, you only use some of the O2 you breathe. You always exhale N, CO2, and O2). The partial pressure of CO2 in your lungs is what triggers the breathing reflex, not the lack of O2. If the mask, in fact resulted in your breathing a significantly higher concentration of CO2, your body would first respond by causing you to hyperventilate.
I don’t remember the school, but I do remember seeing the video of a track competitor wearing a mask that passed out crossing the finish line. It is obvious to me that the mask reduces the O2 uptake. I will not work out wearing a mask. When we landed in places like La Paz Bolivia we landed and took off wearing O2 masks. We were not even allowed to do a check list without wearing an O2 mask. We preflighted the airplane using a ‘walk-around’ O2 bottle. The flight attendants would often come to the cockpit to breathe some oxygen from our masks. We always had O2 available but the FAs only had it for emergency purposes. Many airlines are not serving alcohol except in business/first.
You are confusing the low partial pressure, reduced amount of molecules of O2 (and all gases) at altitude caused by the lower pressure, with the percentages of gases in a given volume of air. Two entirely different physics principles. When wearing an N95 mask, all air molecules can pass in both directions so is totally different and has almost no effect on the percentage of gases in air.
Carbon dioxide exists in the Earth's atmosphere at a concentration of approximately 0.04 percent (400 parts per million) by volume. You could put a plastic bag over your head and re-breathe the same air for several minutes before passing out. That is certainly not what is happening with a porous face mask.
Here is the real deal:
Inhaled air is about 20-percent oxygen. Exhaled air is about 16-percent oxygen. Therefore, only about 4-percent of breathed air is consumed in each breath. That air is converted to carbon dioxide. Free divers continue to function on the amount of O2O in their lungs from the final breath they take before submerging.
Does the same info have more validity when Alans posts it?
Of course! Alan has a super oxygenated brain in my humble opinion!
I don’t doubt that your percentages are correct. The simple fact is that if you have unrestricted airflow, you are getting more air than when you breathe through a mask. That being said, according to your figures you have one hundred times the amount of carbon dioxide in the exhaled air in your mask, and four percent less oxygen under a far lower ‘partial pressure’ at eight thousand feet pressure altitude. That is the reason that many advise not to drink alcohol on an airplane. The effects are enhanced by the high altitude of the cabin … without a mask. One hundred times the CO2 and 4% less O2 can only aggravate the issue. I may have a poorly oxygenated brain, but I have studied aviation physiology at the post graduate level.
You guys can argue the science and the numbers all you want. I'll look at practical matters like passengers and crew wearing masks for both short and long haul flights for a year now. Haven't heard of anyone passing out. I just spent 24 hours in a hospital wearing a mask for all but meals. I have no worries about wearing one for a long travel day though of course would love to do without.
Incidents on planes? We have too many people with anger management and entitlement issues ( not to mention mental health) who seem to think they should never be inconvenienced. Get over youselves.
I'm not a pulmonologist, but I don't make this stuff up, not that smart.
Besides, I read it on the internet, so it MUST be true. 
Seriously, would I lie? (stretch the truth? maybe 
)
The simple fact is, once you exhale through a porous (N95 or other cloth mask)- the exhaled air- all gases that make up that air- immediately mix with the surrounding air having 79%, 21%, and .04% so that your next inhalation will be of a standard, balanced mix of gases!
Outdoor CO2 levels tend to average around 400 ppm, the highest it has been in thousands of years. In extreme cases the levels indoors under severe conditions (5 people crammed into a hermetically sealed phone booth?
) can increase far beyond that, upwards of 1000 ppm (that is 2.5 times ambient!) or even 2000 ppm (5 times ambient). At 1000 ppm-2500 ppm you may experience fatigue, loss of focus and concentration, uncomfortable ‘stuffy’ feeling in the air. At 2500 ppm-5000 ppm you may experience headache, drowsiness, tiredness. 5000 ppm-40,000 ppm violates OSHA requirements. You may experience severe headaches, slight intoxication depending on the exposure time.
But, under normal conditions, a mask and normal exhalation are not going to raise the levels of CO2 from 400 ppm up to anywhere near even 1000 ppm, especially in a normally ventilated room (or aircraft cabin where the “air is completely changed every three minutes, on average, while the aircraft is cruising.” )
Thank you, Claudia, for your post. There for a while I thought I was back in elementary school watching the pre-pubescent boys flexing their non-existent muscles. And what is the point to copy and paste from the internet, especially without referencing sources? Self aggrandizement excuses plagiarism?
I do hope you have recovered from your surgery. My husband also had to wear a mask while he was hospitalized six times over a five month period in 2020. Not a single complaint from him other than not being able to have me visit.
I also agree that too many despicable behaviors on airplanes are due to those that think their "rights" are being violated.
Nonetheless, enjoy your upcoming trip and please be sure to post a review.
kfnknfzk, be careful!!! You'll get yourself in trouble like before.
A bit of hypocrisy? Your earlier post, ". . . . I am also sometimes dismayed at the change in this forum. I can ignore pessimism, but it is the lack of civility that concerns me the most. . . . . " contradicts this most recent one where you imply fellow forum members are "pre-pubescent boys flexing their non-existent muscles. . . . . Self aggrandizement excuses plagiarism?" which is certainly far from civil!! Your post has been reported.
Look, masks have saved millions of lives this passed year, Reading and contributing to the forum continues to keep us thinking about travel and travel related topics that sometimes go off topic. Reading the forum is after all a voluntary activity. I don’t have a Facebook account, so the forum is my go to activity when I sit down to rest from my chores.and for my middle of the night insomnia.
I have another theory for the increased craziness of disruptive passengers apart from those who think that wearing a mask is loss of freedom.....maybe it is the extra anxiety of making the decision to fly in the first place, especially when the CDC etc are advising people not to travel. I will certainly be extra anxious when I first fly, wondering how things are in the country I am flying to, have I got the correct paperwork, will I get a negative test so I can fly back to the US, will there be someone on the tour who keeps moaning about their mask wearing, hope all the places on the itinerary are open and on and on. My husband, who obviously loves to travel, has no desire to get on a plane right now, he’s anxious about being on a plane when a mask related incident occurs.
In the future, our descendants will probably find it unbelievable that we packed ourselves like sardines on a plane and didn’t wear masks. At least when we westerners see people wearing mask in the future, we are not going to find it weird.
When we went to Costco yesterday, we were really surprised at the now voluntary number of people wearing masks, it was a very hot day too
My earlier comment wasn't so much attacking the male head butting, but just to take a more practical view for those who don't get or aren't interested in the science. I know some people are convinced they can't breath in a mask. Everyone is different. I know I had some times - especially in last summer's heat - when I'd be breathing hard and have the instinctive desire to pull the mask off. If I just stopped, calmed down and focused on breathing I was fine. Our bodies are funny reactive things that sometimes sense a threat when one doesn't necessarily exist.
I do worry about incidents on planes but mostly from the potential for causing delays if the plane reroutes and you end up missing a connection.
I’m trying to talk my hubby into a particular Europe tour right now in October and he just won’t budge on going to Europe until 2022. The plane diversions and delays are what concern him too.
My comment was an analogy regarding behavior; it was not a personal attack on anyone. It is unfortunate that you perceived it that way.
I got myself in trouble before? I didn't know that. Interesting and quite telling.
Yes, it is.
Did you not leave this forum in a tizzy several months ago, deleting all your past posts in the process?
Tizzy. I am not familiar with such pedigreed vernacular.
Regarding deleting posts, it is a function of data management that I periodically perform on all my files. If there was a particular post you wish for me to resurrect, I would be more than happy to oblige.
Learning how to be more creative and Fun with my pictures ... for my upcoming trip to Egypt , Sept.2021!
Original pic and then ...
Mil: a flag for interesting photos??? The phantom flagger must have had a bad moment 😱 very uncivilized
Kfnknfzk: for your edification
Thanks Phantom Flagger ... the clues are becoming clearer
Some here think the atmosphere in a hospital room is the same as an airplane. It is not. When you are in an airplane your atmosphere is roughly eight thousand feet of pressure altitude. If wearing a mask just reduces your ‘air’ intake by twenty percent, you are effectively above ten thousand feet where you should be on supplemental oxygen. How hypoxic people act is not very predictable, but I’ve been on enough high altitude pressure chamber rides to be able to say that you may observe some bizarre behavior. Perhaps some have also forgotten the Apollo 13 story when they had to invent and build a device to ‘scrub’ the CO2 in order to survive. Read the small print on the airline website about masks. There are people who ‘cannot’ wear masks on airplanes.
Phantom Looser!!!
Sealord, you missed the point. A porous fiber mask will not limit the volume of "air" your lungs can inhale at any given altitude. A mask may add a minute amount of breathing resistance, but in no way limits the volume of air your lungs will hold.
As for partial pressure- high cabin altitude will certainly reduce the partial pressure of gases in the air you breathe, but wearing a porous mask has no affect on that. Purely a guess, but most likely those who "can't" wear a mask are those with COPD or diaphragm problems, or have claustrophobia.
The bottom line, a porous, N95 or cloth, mask will not reduce the amount of air or O2 you inhale, reduce the amount of CO2 you exhale, nor increase the amount of ambient CO2 you inhale.
I need some nitrous oxide to make me laugh!
How about some helium?
AlanS, you got a Flag... Lucky you.. The looser likes you!
I’m beginning to think that there is glory in being flagged...the phantom flagger must think a flag means something to be noted👀
I’m confused about flags, I don’t see a number on Alan’s flag.
I have Whatsapp but not Facebook to communicate with English friends. A group of four was started including me for our midwives group. Before then, one of them would send me a morning joke, video or inspirational saying. Now she puts them on the group one, another friend makes a comment on each of those, I feel my phone is pinging every five minutes and there’s nothing but a lol or 👍 it’s driving me nuts