BKMD we have the same discussion in our family every time we see one of these churches. But wouldn't it be a shame, after all those thousands of workers and their families made all those sacrifices ions ago, if we DIDN'T go see their work?
BKMD we have the same discussion in our family every time we see one of these churches. But wouldn't it be a shame, after all those thousands of workers and their families made all those sacrifices ions ago, if we DIDN'T go see their work?
I suppose it depends on how you look at it. I see these types of buildings as the exploitation of the poor.
I suppose you could look at it as although the money to build these places was taken by force from the poor, and the workers were probably not paid much for their labor, they produced “art” that has survived through the ages – and think of the building as a monument to those people.
It’s not just buildings from the past that evoke this reaction from me. Modern churches are built on an expensive, grand scale. The money that went to build that edifice could have gone to help the poor – perhaps to give them an education that could lift them out of poverty.
The Amish do not have churches – they meet in someone’s home.
We all have different things that are our favorites on tours which is why I think the generic "what should I see when I go to (fill in the city)" is kind of a dumb question in many ways. One person's favorite is another's OMG not again. We try to stay open to what the site and hopefully a knowledgeable local guide has to offer but I remember one of the reasons we picked the Switzerland tour after the Danube/Rhine cruise was a desire to see scenery vs imposing buildings. Now my husband has lost interest in the Canadian Rockies because we've seen so many beautiful mountains. Go figure.
The history and evidence don't quite support your analysis.
In the case of Egypt, so far the evidence points to mostly paid workers building the pyramids, not slaves, or forced labor. Civilizations back then always had slaves from peoples they conquered. It wasn't right, but that is the way it was. Most workers came from the countryside, which was larger then, when farmers could not til their fields due to the annual flooding of the Nile. Entire neighborhoods (cities?) were built to house them, e.g. Deir Al Medina in Luxor and the recently discovered housing area just south of the Sphinx in Giza. There is almost no evidence that these laborers and skilled workmen were mistreated or taken advantage of, contrary to what is seen in some old book illustrations (but none in hieroglyphics) or movies like the 10 Commandments. There is evidence of hard labor, but not a single whip has been discovered nor evidence of large scale physical abuse (which would be evident on mummy skeletons.)
As to churches and cathedrals built during the Rennaissance, the story is similar, but w/o slaves. While it required large amounts of unskilled labor, it also required a large number of very highly skilled stone masons, sculptors, artists, glaziers, etc., etc. These people were paid and often paid very well. There was significant competition amongst the big names to land a commission. There was also stiff competition to get an apprenticeship in the studios of Michelangelo and the other masters of that era. I suggest you read some of the books by Ross King such as "Brunelleschi's Dome", the "Pope's Ceiling," etc.
The money to build these grand churches and cathedrals, didn't come from the workers nor from taxes. The Medici family which amassed a large amount of wealth, starting with Cosimo the Elder who created one of Europe's largest banks and modernized banking, funded the Duomo, baptistry and its famous doors, in Florence, and the Sistine Chapel and St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. But, a significant amount of resources and most of the management of the construction also came from the guilds, especially the wool guild which was the richest and was responsible for the Florence Duomo. While there were arguably some "bad" Medicis, the family also supplied Pope's, nobility, artists, and art patrons. Lorenzo Medici earned the love of Florentine citizens by doing acts such as freeing and clothing galley slaves. You can argue all day about how they gained their wealth, but how different is this from the Rockefellers, Carnegie, Bill Gates, and the other major philanthropists. Even the Vanderbilts built an entire town for the workers for the construction of the 'Biltmore' in Asheville. While many of them took advantage of the tax system at the time (mostly legally) and some pulled off political shenanigans, they didn't "divert resources" from the people. In fact, through their many projects and businesses they contributed to the economy and employment. The same can't be said of the Antebellum South.
My observation is that if there were no rich people and we were all equal, there would be nothing fantastic to see. The other way of thinking, like communism where as I understand it in its most simplest form is supposed to keep us all equal, it does not work. Human beings are not programmed to be like that. . After all, as Tauck travelers, are we not putting ourselves on another level….when I go on vacation, I expect someone else to make my bed, and not pay them much to do it….which is just the same as expecting someone to build my pyramid or church for me.
I enjoy visiting Italy. I’ve been there maybe five or six times over the years. My first visit in my early twenties, it blew me away and it still does.I enjoy going into churches, well any buildings really. I’m not that into religious art paintings as such, yet I like to see the skill of those who painted them. If I could sneak in another visit to anywhere in Italy right now, I would go in a heartbeat, we still have not rescheduled our Covid canceled Croatia to Venice tour.
To see the real Italy, I think we got more out of visiting the small towns and villages of places like Tuscany and Umbria and Puglia but the big cities should not be missed either, it’s a very hard choice to make.
Anywhere in Italy is awesome and has it's own attraction, I remember being pleasantly surprise at how lovely the villages in Northern Italy were, like you British I can go back there anytime. I also feel the same way about Spain which is very dear to me as all my grandparents were born there.
When I think about the construction of the churches and other buildings in Europe, I think about the craftsmen who made them possible. Just last week at my dentist's office I spoke with the office manager who is going to Paris in the fall. She is looking forward to seeing the Sacre Coeur. When I remarked that she shouldn't be too disappointed because it is less imposing than other churches and cathedrals, she said that she is looking to go and stare at a portion fo the facade. Her great-grandfather was responsible for a small portion of it. I would imagine that the families and descendants of those who built the churches and cathedrals in the middle ages would feel the same way....proud of what their ancestors were able to accomplish!
Comments
BKMD we have the same discussion in our family every time we see one of these churches. But wouldn't it be a shame, after all those thousands of workers and their families made all those sacrifices ions ago, if we DIDN'T go see their work?
I suppose it depends on how you look at it. I see these types of buildings as the exploitation of the poor.
I suppose you could look at it as although the money to build these places was taken by force from the poor, and the workers were probably not paid much for their labor, they produced “art” that has survived through the ages – and think of the building as a monument to those people.
It’s not just buildings from the past that evoke this reaction from me. Modern churches are built on an expensive, grand scale. The money that went to build that edifice could have gone to help the poor – perhaps to give them an education that could lift them out of poverty.
The Amish do not have churches – they meet in someone’s home.
We all have different things that are our favorites on tours which is why I think the generic "what should I see when I go to (fill in the city)" is kind of a dumb question in many ways. One person's favorite is another's OMG not again. We try to stay open to what the site and hopefully a knowledgeable local guide has to offer but I remember one of the reasons we picked the Switzerland tour after the Danube/Rhine cruise was a desire to see scenery vs imposing buildings. Now my husband has lost interest in the Canadian Rockies because we've seen so many beautiful mountains. Go figure.
AlanS - I've to those churches, beautiful art work inside, great pictures.
The history and evidence don't quite support your analysis.
In the case of Egypt, so far the evidence points to mostly paid workers building the pyramids, not slaves, or forced labor. Civilizations back then always had slaves from peoples they conquered. It wasn't right, but that is the way it was. Most workers came from the countryside, which was larger then, when farmers could not til their fields due to the annual flooding of the Nile. Entire neighborhoods (cities?) were built to house them, e.g. Deir Al Medina in Luxor and the recently discovered housing area just south of the Sphinx in Giza. There is almost no evidence that these laborers and skilled workmen were mistreated or taken advantage of, contrary to what is seen in some old book illustrations (but none in hieroglyphics) or movies like the 10 Commandments. There is evidence of hard labor, but not a single whip has been discovered nor evidence of large scale physical abuse (which would be evident on mummy skeletons.)
As to churches and cathedrals built during the Rennaissance, the story is similar, but w/o slaves. While it required large amounts of unskilled labor, it also required a large number of very highly skilled stone masons, sculptors, artists, glaziers, etc., etc. These people were paid and often paid very well. There was significant competition amongst the big names to land a commission. There was also stiff competition to get an apprenticeship in the studios of Michelangelo and the other masters of that era. I suggest you read some of the books by Ross King such as "Brunelleschi's Dome", the "Pope's Ceiling," etc.
The money to build these grand churches and cathedrals, didn't come from the workers nor from taxes. The Medici family which amassed a large amount of wealth, starting with Cosimo the Elder who created one of Europe's largest banks and modernized banking, funded the Duomo, baptistry and its famous doors, in Florence, and the Sistine Chapel and St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. But, a significant amount of resources and most of the management of the construction also came from the guilds, especially the wool guild which was the richest and was responsible for the Florence Duomo. While there were arguably some "bad" Medicis, the family also supplied Pope's, nobility, artists, and art patrons. Lorenzo Medici earned the love of Florentine citizens by doing acts such as freeing and clothing galley slaves. You can argue all day about how they gained their wealth, but how different is this from the Rockefellers, Carnegie, Bill Gates, and the other major philanthropists. Even the Vanderbilts built an entire town for the workers for the construction of the 'Biltmore' in Asheville. While many of them took advantage of the tax system at the time (mostly legally) and some pulled off political shenanigans, they didn't "divert resources" from the people. In fact, through their many projects and businesses they contributed to the economy and employment. The same can't be said of the Antebellum South.
Well said Alan.
Alan. Great info.
Thank you Alan, great comment and very true.
My observation is that if there were no rich people and we were all equal, there would be nothing fantastic to see. The other way of thinking, like communism where as I understand it in its most simplest form is supposed to keep us all equal, it does not work. Human beings are not programmed to be like that. . After all, as Tauck travelers, are we not putting ourselves on another level….when I go on vacation, I expect someone else to make my bed, and not pay them much to do it….which is just the same as expecting someone to build my pyramid or church for me.
I enjoy visiting Italy. I’ve been there maybe five or six times over the years. My first visit in my early twenties, it blew me away and it still does.I enjoy going into churches, well any buildings really. I’m not that into religious art paintings as such, yet I like to see the skill of those who painted them. If I could sneak in another visit to anywhere in Italy right now, I would go in a heartbeat, we still have not rescheduled our Covid canceled Croatia to Venice tour.
To see the real Italy, I think we got more out of visiting the small towns and villages of places like Tuscany and Umbria and Puglia but the big cities should not be missed either, it’s a very hard choice to make.
Anywhere in Italy is awesome and has it's own attraction, I remember being pleasantly surprise at how lovely the villages in Northern Italy were, like you British I can go back there anytime. I also feel the same way about Spain which is very dear to me as all my grandparents were born there.
When I think about the construction of the churches and other buildings in Europe, I think about the craftsmen who made them possible. Just last week at my dentist's office I spoke with the office manager who is going to Paris in the fall. She is looking forward to seeing the Sacre Coeur. When I remarked that she shouldn't be too disappointed because it is less imposing than other churches and cathedrals, she said that she is looking to go and stare at a portion fo the facade. Her great-grandfather was responsible for a small portion of it. I would imagine that the families and descendants of those who built the churches and cathedrals in the middle ages would feel the same way....proud of what their ancestors were able to accomplish!